The Health Care "CRISIS" - Does it really exist? How do we fix it?

[MetalMeister]

Again, the Virginian has caused me to start a new economic thread.

The Health care "issue" is all about the money, isn't it?

SideWinder points out one issue, tort reform.

Is tort reform really one of the major players in the health care "CRISIS"?

How do we fix the health care "CRISIS"?

Why do we find ourselves in crisis?  How do we get out?

Who wants to step forward and offer opinions?

Thanks!

This is from martin Armstrong's April 2009 report.  I do like how he thinks

Health Care Reform cannot be done without Tort Reform

It is interesting that the majority of Senators and Congressmen are lawyers.  We hear about the greed of “Wall Street” and the government wants to curtail bonuses to corporate CEOs and bankers that will make the highest paying jobs in society either of two options – (1) be a sports player, or  (2) a lawyer.

Princeton Economics conducted a small study into the health industry.  What we had found was that doctors wee ordering tests they know they did not need, not for the sake of personal greed to increase fees, but because if sued the lawyers would then claim they were guilty of malpractice.  Costs have escalated because of the lawyers and then the cost of insurance has to reflect the risk of huge jury awards.  However, the lawyers may take on a case on a contingent basis and then take 40% of the award.

It is time that the self-interest of the legal profession yield to the needs of our economy to save or way of life.  There should be national health care just like there is a fire department, police, and schools.  That does not prevent private doctors for those who want to pay for that.  But we need full coverage for the average American family.  Small business routinely paid for the family as a benefit.  Then the lawyers sent the costs sky-high.

Then government sees how much those benefits are today as a percentage of income, and then you hear the battle cry to tax it.  This is an economic death-spiral that if we do not fix correctly with real live tort reform, there will be no healthcare that is provided by employers.  Just look at General motors.  The legacy costs are so high, they would be better off going bankrupt.  People who worked in good faith for those long-term benefits will see that there is nothing guaranteed but what Ben Franklin said – death and taxes.
We need to eliminate unlimited jury awards.  If you lose an arm, that should have a specific penalty, not be based upon emotional loss that the person may not be able in the future to be a rock-star.  Healthcare should not be this insane.  It never use to be this costly as a percent of total spending.

Healthcare costs are sending even service jobs overseas. Employers cannot afford these costs and it is not right that families end up in poverty because of a medical emergency.  The majority of lawyers on Capitol Hill have been preventing this reform because it is not Wall Street, but the legal Profession.  Every other profession is now subject to the criticism of Congress, but the legal profession and that includes their own Government attorneys.  This is the fate of our society at stake.  When will we stop not the greed on Wall Street, but the greed in Congress?

Obama’s plan illustrates the problem.  He is only proposing adding $50 trillion in future liability for Government healthcare to cover those who are not covered at tax payer expense.  If you are a small business, give up the healthcare for your workers can now get coverage for free.  This will attract a larger proportion of the population but will not address the rising costs and will accelerate them because the Government will pick up the tab.  We need tort reform as well – not just picking up the bills for those who cannot afford it.  This will not reduce healthcare costs as a percent of GDP and allows the lawyers to still reap the benefits. 

We need to address the rising costs, not just those who have no insurance.  If we do not address real reform, then we might as well declare bankruptcy now for there will be a revolution when all the jobs that can leave, do leave.  What will we become then?  All sports viewers, and where is my free Bread?

[MetalMeister]

Okay, let's keep tort reform right here...

If there were no mistakes made by Doctors then would we really need tort reform?

Or is it Judge reform that we really need (judges that will throw out frivilous lawsuits)?

Is tort reform just limits and caps on damages and punitive costs?

My additional thoughts are that we spend, as a nation, more dollars on health care, per capita, than any other nation in the world yet we rank near 50 on the world rankings WHO in quality or substance of health.  Japan is first.

Why are we so far down in the rankings when we spend more?

If we spend only as much per capita as Japan does will our quality of health care go up?

Still playing devil's advocate...

Zzzzzzzz......

[sidewinder]

Tort reform would only be a start.  A generation of doctors have been trained that in order to practice their profession they must first of all protect themselves.  That is, in order to provide the best patient care based on his/her best judgment, opinion and medical knowledge they must first protect against any legal action that may occur in the event the patient eventually sues.  While malpractice is certainly a basis for damages, the huge and outrageous awards in past litigation has made an industry out of suing doctors and medical facilities.  That has built a cottage industry of predatory attorneys seeking their fortune and 40%;  Just watch all the TV ads for lawyers.  This has turned insurance companies into another form of predator sucking the Doctors dry through unbelievable rates for malpractice premiums. 
 
It reminds me of waking up one morning in Viet Nam after a rainy night during monsoon season.  I slept on my poncho liner on the ground in some nice soft grass.  Everything was wet, everything.  I looked at my arms and there were about 8 fat, blood engorged leaches on my arms.  Then I heard one of my buddies say “Son of a bitch” …. He too was covered in the blood suckers.  We spent the next 20 minutes or so burning them off with cigarettes.  (you don’t want to just yank em off it will snap off their head and leave it embedded in your skin.  Just put some heat to em and they will back right out)  So, just like leaches we need to put some heat to the congress and the American Bar association and back these suckers out.  We can’t afford to leave the head embedded. 

We have been around long enough to set what is “reasonable” for damages, let’s put it in law what the maximum award can be for any malpractice and be done with it.  Then tell the insurance companies to revise their actuarial tables and begin to charge reasonable premiums. 

My wife just had cataract surgery.  So far the total cost has been just south of $15,000 for both eyes. Now I assure you I am not making this up.  I have a friend that lives in Saigon or Ho Chi Minh city as their government likes to call it now.  He is in the construction business there and I went with him to get the same surgery.  We are golf buddies and I happened to be in town so he asked me to go in case he could not see well and needed help getting home.  The clinic was clean, professionally staffed and the Doctors were well trained in Europe. The surgery was done in about 15 minutes.  He paid cash before we left … three one hundred dollar bills.   Now if the zipper-heads can do this for 300 US and still make a profit, that speaks volumes as to what must be going on here.  I certainly don’t expect a doctor in the US to do this for 300 because we live in a different economy, but $300 vs $7500 … come on.  Something’s wrong here and we need to fix it.

[sidewinder]

since we are talking about medicine.  Let's see if anyone can identify this instrument used by physicians in the 1700-early 1800's.  Care to guess?  Hint:  It has apparently been reintroduced by The US Congress

[sunseeker]

Re: Guess.
Tobacco Smoke Enema (1750s-1810s)
The tobacco enema was used to infuse tobacco smoke into a patient’s rectum for various medical purposes, primarily the resuscitation of drowning victims. A rectal tube inserted into the anus was connected to a fumigator and bellows that forced the smoke towards the rectum. The warmth of the smoke was thought to promote respiration, but doubts about the credibility of tobacco enemas led to the popular phrase “blow smoke up one’s ass.”
 
Very funny.

I admit that I Googled it, but I started out on the right lines. It had to be either that or some blood letting device. You learn something every day.
ATB

[sidewinder]

Way to go Sunseeker, You win before anyone could even get to it.  Man, I did not think anyone would come up with that so quick. 

The old device is now being used on the public, by Congress and the Administration.. LOL

[sunseeker]

Hi SW
I am fairly good at Googling, and I like a challenge.

One for the Nam Veteran.



I was listening to a program on the BBC tonight. US unemployment going up. People aren’t spending. Banks aren’t lending. The economic stimulus package is failing. Obama’s popularity dropping (I think they said from 78% to about 52%). He will have trouble getting the health bill through.

But worst of all. Shock Horror..................

We where watching Obama speaking today, and Mrs Sunseeker cried out “He’s going grey. He’s not been in the job that long and already his hair showing signs of going grey.” 

Although thinking about it I don’t know where that leaves me. 

ATB 

[Bottomfeeder]

SS.....that leaves you alot smarter than Obama.....

[MetalMeister]

SS,

I love ya, man!!

Re: Guess.
Tobacco Smoke Enema (1750s-1810s)
The tobacco enema was used to infuse tobacco smoke into a patient’s rectum for various medical purposes, primarily the resuscitation of drowning victims. A rectal tube inserted into the anus was connected to a fumigator and bellows that forced the smoke towards the rectum. The warmth of the smoke was thought to promote respiration, but doubts about the credibility of tobacco enemas led to the popular phrase “blow smoke up one’s ass.”
 
Very funny.

I admit that I Googled it, but I started out on the right lines. It had to be either that or some blood letting device. You learn something every day.
ATB

[MetalMeister]

SS,

Please forward us a real picture so we can take the liberty to tell you where that leaves you...

On the news tonight the latest Gallup poll put Obama's figure of disapproval at 50% and his approval rating at 44%. 

http://www.gallup.com/home.aspx

He is quickly catching up with President Bush as his foreign policies are starting to look more and more like George Bush's and his economic policies are far worse than George Bush's and his social agenda is making NO ONE happy because of the huge deficit spending and the recognition that he has lied his ass off as far as "NO NEW TAXES FOR PEOPLE MAKING UNDER 250K".  It was lies, all damnable lies and everyone is quickly catching up to those facts.  This guy is going to be the most laughable President in the history of our nation. 

That's what you get when you give a community organizer the Presidency.  Everybody is now figuring out that he is a grat orator but an executive NEOPHYTE.

Gary hair in 6 months?  He is realizing that he is not up for the job...

Eat your heart out DavidSlane...  Just funning with ya buddy!  But I told you so...

I was listening to a program on the BBC tonight. US unemployment going up. People aren’t spending. Banks aren’t lending. The economic stimulus package is failing. Obama’s popularity dropping (I think they said from 78% to about 52%). He will have trouble getting the health bill through.

But worst of all. Shock Horror..................

We where watching Obama speaking today, and Mrs Sunseeker cried out “He’s going grey. He’s not been in the job that long and already his hair showing signs of going grey.” 

Although thinking about it I don’t know where that leaves me. 

ATB 

[MetalMeister]

Campaigning was great wasn't it?

Reality sucks though!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/03/obamas-gray-hai.html

[jjj000]

So, just like leaches we need to put some heat to the congress and the American Bar association and back these suckers out.  We can’t afford to leave the head embedded.

Great analogy.

[MetalMeister]

Here are the WHO rankings as of the year 2000...

Anybody care to venture why we are ranked 37?

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Rank       Country

1         France
2         Italy
3         San Marino
4         Andorra
5         Malta
6         Singapore
7         Spain
8         Oman
9         Austria
10        Japan
11        Norway
12        Portugal
13        Monaco
14        Greece
15        Iceland
16        Luxembourg
17        Netherlands
18        United  Kingdom
19        Ireland
20        Switzerland
21        Belgium
22        Colombia
23        Sweden
24        Cyprus
25        Germany
26        Saudi Arabia
27        United  Arab  Emirates
28        Israel
29        Morocco
30        Canada
31        Finland
32        Australia
33        Chile
34        Denmark
35        Dominica
36        Costa Rica
37        United States of America
38        Slovenia
39        Cuba
40        Brunei
41        New Zealand
42        Bahrain
43        Croatia
44        Qatar
45        Kuwait
46        Barbados
47        Thailand
48        Czech Republic
49        Malaysia
50        Poland

[MetalMeister]

And here is who spends the most as a % of GDP, then you realize who has the biggest GDP and you recoil in shock:


               Total Expenditure on Health as % of GDP 2000-2005

  Rank   Location            2000   2001   2002   2003   2004   2005
  -------     ---------------------------------------------                     -------         -------         -------         -------         -------         -------
   1   Marshall Islands         22   19.1   18.4   16.3   13.2   15.4
   2   United States of America      13.2   13.9   14.7   15.1   15.2   15.2
   3   Niue            8   38.1   11.1   12.5   15.5   14.5
   4   Timor-Leste         8.8   8.6   8.5   9.2   10.3   13.7
   5   Micronesia (Fed. States of)      9   9.8   9.1   10.7   11.7   13.5
   6   Kiribati            11.6   12.3   12.6   13.7   13.7   12.7
   7   Maldives            6.8   6.8   6.6   7.2   7.8   12.4
   8   Malawi            6.1   7.8   10   12.8   12.8   12.2
   9   Switzerland         10.3   10.7   11   11.4   11.4   11.4
  10   France            9.6   9.7   10   10.9   11   11.2
  11   Germany            10.3   10.4   10.6   10.8   10.6   10.7
  12   Jordan            9.4   9.6   9.3   9.3   10.1   10.5
  13   Nauru            11   10.8   10.6   10.3   10.4   10.3
  14   Argentina            8.9   9.5   8.9   8.3   9.6   10.2
  15   Austria            10   10   10.1   10.2   10.3   10.2
  16   Portugal            8.8   8.8   9   9.7   10   10.2
  17   Greece            9.3   9.8   9.7   10   9.6   10.1
  18   Canada            8.8   9.3   9.6   9.8   9.8   9.8
  19   Sao Tome and Principe      6.3   9.1   8.6   11.9   12.1   9.8 
  20   Belgium            9.1   9.3   9.5   9.5   9.7   9.6
  21   Palau            9.7   9.1   10.1   11.5   9.7   9.6
  22   Denmark            8.3   8.6   8.8   9.3   9.4   9.4
  23   Iceland            9.3   9.2   9.9   10.2   9.9   9.4
  24   Netherlands         8   8.3   8.9   8.9   9   9.2
  25   Sweden            8.2   8.6   9   9.1   9.2   9.2
  26   Norway            8.4   8.8   9.8   10   9.7   9.1
  27   Italy            8.1   8.2   8.3   8.3   8.7   8.9
  28   New Zealand         8.1   8.3   8.5   8.4   8.5   8.9
  29   Australia            8.3   8.4   8.6   8.6   8.8   8.8
  30   Bosnia and Herzegovina      7   6.9   7.7   8.1   8.6   8.8
  31   Tuvalu            13.4   10.5   9.4   11.1   9.2   8.8
  32   Lebanon            11   10.7   9.4   8.9   8.8   8.7
  33   South Africa         8.1   8.4   8.3   8.4   8.5   8.7
  34   Georgia            7.4   7.8   8.7   8.5   8.5   8.6
  35   Slovenia            8.4   8.7   8.8   8.8   8.5   8.5
  36   Malta            6.8   7.2   7.8   8.1   8.2   8.4      
  37   Botswana            4.8   4.2   5.7   6.4   7.7   8.3      
  38   Ireland            6.3   6.9   7.1   7.3   7.5   8.2      
  39   Japan            7.6   7.9   8   8.1   8   8.2      
  40   Spain            7.2   7.2   7.3   7.8   8.1   8.2      
  41   United Kingdom         7.2   7.5   7.6   7.7   8   8.2      
  42   Uruguay            10.5   10.8   10.3   9.8   8.2   8.1      
  43   Zimbabwe            8.3   6.4   5.8   7.2   8.4   8.1      
  44   Montenegro         7.5   8   7.9   8.2   8   8      
  45   Serbia            7.1   7.3   8.3   8.3   8   8      
  46   Brazil            7.2   7.6   7.7   7.5   7.7   7.9      
  47   Nicaragua            7.2   7.7   8   8   7.9   7.9      
  48   Hungary            6.9   7.2   7.6   8.3   8.1   7.8      
  49   Iran (Islamic Republic of)      5.9   6.1   6.1   6.2   6.2   7.8      
  50   Israel            8   8.4   8.3   8.2   8.1   7.8

[sidewinder]

Hear's the link to the Smoke enema device YC.  Now dont go corner the market in these things there will be great demand for them by state governments as they see how well the devices works on the American people.